Highlands East plans fireworks restrictions

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February 13, 2020

Highlands East councillors voted 3-2 to prepare a bylaw restricting fireworks in their municipality to certain holiday weekends.

Acting fire chief Chris Baughman presented a bylaw draft at the Feb. 11 council meeting in response to direction from council last September. That direction was to investigate the introduction of a bylaw prohibiting the use of fireworks.

Baughman included that option in his presentation, but noted that, to his knowledge, there is not a total ban on fireworks anywhere in Ontario. He therefore added two other options for council’s consideration: restrict fireworks use to certain holiday weekends and times, or maintain the level of regulation already in place.

“We rarely find the events or the person who set [fireworks] off,” said Baughman as he described the difficulties in enforcing a fireworks bylaw.“[It] is my opinion that public education and messaging regarding current restrictions and safeties may be more beneficial than the introduction of a bylaw.”

Mayor Dave Burton and councillors Suzanne Partridge and Ruth Strong voted for the holiday restrictions option. Deputy mayor Cecil Ryall and councillor Cam McKenzie wished to see the bylaw written differently, such as including special occasions permits, and voted against the option.

With the vote, Baughman will bring forward a new draft of the bylaw for approval at a future meeting, which will restrict fireworks.

Baughman’s first draft, written with bylaw enforcement staff, addresses the holiday restrictions option. It states that use of consumer fireworks would be banned at all times except: Victoria Day, Civic Holiday and Labour Day between 7 p.m. and 11 p.m. on the weekend preceding and including the statutory holiday; New Year’s Eve from 7 p.m. to New Year’s Day at 1 a.m.; and Canada Day between 7 p.m. and 11 p.m. on the weekend prior to Canada Day, the weekend directly following Canada Day or on July 1.

“It used to be I would not leave my dog unattended” on holidays where fireworks were used, said Partridge. “Now it’s gotten to the point where it’s every weekend … it’s happening all the time. I don’t see having any special exemptions, just sticking to the holiday events.”

Other restrictions in the draft included the location of the fireworks, and permit and certification requirements for public fireworks displays. Flying lanterns will be banned from both sale and use. Anyone who contravenes the bylaw would be liable to pay an administrative penalty of $100 upon issuance of a penalty notice.

Two studies have been done regarding fireworks restrictions in Highlands East, Baughman reported. A township website questionnaire gathered 174 votes for a total ban, 174 for restriction to holiday weekends and 228 for maintaining current regulatory levels.

A Billings Lake Association survey covered 54 of 85 occupied cottages on the lake. Of the 48 responses received, 10 were for a total ban, 24 were for restriction to holidays and 14 favoured the status quo.

During an hour-long discussion, councillors considered Baughman’s three options and whether the bylaw draft should be amended in any way if the holiday restrictions option were chosen. Topics included eliminating time restrictions and allowing for special occasion permits.

“If we were to come up with a way to come up with permitting [for special occasions] as an option I would be totally in favour,” said Cecil Ryall.

Chief administrative officer Shannon Hunter noted that amendments may be made to the draft. Baughman confirmed he will amend the draft and bring it back to council.

MH budget goes to public meeting

By

Lisa Gervais

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February 12, 2020

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Minden Hills will proceed to a public meeting Feb. 13 after essentially passing its 2020 budget Jan. 30 – with a 5.3 per cent levy increase.

During third draft budget deliberations last Thursday, roads continued to be a major part of the talks.

The township is planning to borrow about $2 million for some major projects. They include: the Sunnybrook Bridge ($400k), Sedgwick Road Bridge ($160k share, should they receive successful funding), Millburn Road Bridge wearing surface ($10k), 0.9km of Bobcaygeon Road ($775k). Wilson said the other projects include the Shetland Road drainage project ($230k) and IGA Road ($375k).

While the township is debenturing for roads for the first time, Wilson said the overall roads budget is still down nearly $170,000 from 2019, which he called “a sad day for roads” in Minden Hills.

He further said there was a “pile of money coming out of reserves.” He added while the debenture does allow the township to complete multiple projects, “the annual debenture payment could have a negative impact on future budgets.” He said an example would be a new waste facility location for Scotch Line, which could cost between $1-2 million. He said in the absence of other funding, it too would need to be borrowed.

Also approved was 35.32km of mechanical brushing. This will be done on Bacon, Bethel, Claude Brown, Conway, Devils Lake, Plantation, Queen’s Line and Scotch Line roads. He noted it was less than proposed in the second round.

Receiving slurry seal and a minor rehabilitation are: Hunter Creek, Spar Lake and Hospitality roads, along with Spring Valley, County, Plantation, and Fleming roads.

He noted many projects remain off of the books, including the remainder of Bobcaygeon Road, Blairhampton Road, Peterson Road, village streets, Scotch Line and Davis Lake Road, and brushing of Irondale Road, Salerno Lake Road and Beer Lake Road.

“Although funds were found through the MMAH grant, 2018 Surplus, without those funds the Roads Department received a 0% increase from 2018 to 2019. 0% adjustments are often believed to be “status quo”; however, with ever increasing costs it results in a negative performance (going backwards, not stabilized),” Wilson concluded.

Deputy Mayor Lisa Schell said she gets called mostly about roads. “Is there anything else in there we can grab onto so as not to fall behind the eight ball on roads?” she asked.

“I’ve sat here for 14 years and I don’t want us to go backwards. It’s the one thing people see that their taxes go towards.”

There was some talk of upping the debenture to put more money into brushing but Coun. Bob Carter remarked, “no matter what money we spend, it’s going to end up as taxation.”

Under the environment department, the budget also paves for the way for the closing of the Irondale landfill. However, Coun. Jean Neville said she still wants a formal resolution to discussions with Highlands East about that township’s use of the landfill.

There are also plans to close all landfills on Wednesdays in winter, reopening them on Thursday. The rationale is to allow training since the township hopes to eventually bring the service in-house. Wilson said if council wanted to keep one open, he’d suggest Ingoldsby, between 2-5 p.m. Wednesday, then closed Thursday.

Carter asked it be a seasonal trial with a report back to council.

Users of the Lutterworth water system will see an increase of five per cent, or about $55 per user.

What it means for you

• A mid-range three per cent increase in “phased-in” residential assessment would result in a $57.08 increase in taxes – municipal share only; or approximately $4.76 per month.

• A five per cent increase in “phasedin” residential assessment would result in a $79.44 increase in taxes – municipal share only; or approximately $6.62 per month.

• A mid-range three per cent increase in “phased-in” commercial assessment would result in a $68.05 increase in taxes – municipal share only; or approximately $7.05 per month.

• A five per cent increase in “phasedin” commercial assessment would result in a $84.63 increase in taxes – municipal share only; or approximately $9.82 per month.

Student athletes upset as seasons cut short

By

Lisa Gervais

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February 11, 2020

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After weeks of effort, practices and competition, Haliburton’s winter student athletes are outraged at the prospect of their seasons getting cut short due to a board decision amidst labour unrest.

“All the blood, sweat and tears to get there and just, nothing,” junior girls volleyball player Kiera Casey said. “It’s so emotionally hard.”

Haliburton Highlands Secondary School (HHSS) is managing an end to extracurriculars during the school day. Trillium Lakelands District School Board (TLDSB) was the only board in the province opting to do this due to the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation (OSSTF) pulling back from on-calls Jan. 20 amidst its labour dispute with the province.

The board has expressed concerns about classes getting covered if teachers are absent due to extracurriculars, now that union members will not cover for absent colleagues. The result is HHSS teams are unable to play games or tournaments during the school day, including playoff qualifiers and championships.

“It’s very upsetting,” Grade 12 student and co-captain of the senior girls volleyball team Rebecca Archibald said. “I’m pretty upset that they’re taking my way to actually be okay in school.”

TLDSB has asked for activities to be rescheduled. But Kawartha District Athletic Association chair Kathleen Carson said although they are willing to try and accommodate some regular-season games, it is not possible to reschedule championships, mostly due to time constraints.

“There are significant challenges to overcome and there is no universal solution for all sports or events,” Carson said. “We truly hope that as many league games can be rescheduled and that a solution is reached prior to any championship phase.”

District manager of corporate communications Catherine Shedden said the board relied on teachers to provide 318 on-calls across 12 instructional days in December to cover 159 classes. There was also 245 supply teacher events, an average of 20 people needed per day. The supply teacher list currently has 147 people, 54 of whom are unavailable in semester 2.

“We are concerned that we are not able to cover off all the absences required of our teachers, Shedden said.

But union representatives and students alike have pushed back and expressed frustration, given other boards are continuing sports while facing the same lack of on-calls. Games are already being hit, with volleyball teams missing tournaments and the boys hockey team having a road game cancelled Feb. 4.

“It sucks. We all want to just play sports and have fun,” hockey player Isaac Little said. “Really sucks that politics are getting in the way of that.”

Archibald said people might look down on high school teams. But she added students learn a lot of different skills. She added there are limited options for competitive sports nearby.

“We live in Haliburton. You can play club but it takes two hours almost to get to any closest club,” Archibald said. “I’m upset because I want to play as long as I can before I’m not in school anymore.”

Parents are also expressing outcry. A change.org petition asking TLDSB to reserve its decision has amassed more than 600 signatures.

As the labour dispute has continued for months, resulting in schools closing for strike days, Archibald described feeling helpless as a student.

“I feel like there’s nothing I can actually do to change it because it’s such a big issue,” Archibald said. “I feel small.”

“For the first time ever, I’ve been hoping to not have school cancelled,” Little said. “We want to play sports.”

County providing incentives for affordable housing development

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Lisa Gervais

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February 10, 2020

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The County of Haliburton and City of Kawartha Lakes want to educate developers through information sessions about incentives to create affordable housing.

The Feb. 11 and Feb. 13 events in Haliburton and Fenelon Falls will also invite housing providers, non-profits, landlords and homeowners to learn. The presentations will touch on several kinds of housing which can receive a boost, including new construction, rehabilitation and secondary suites.

City of Kawartha Lakes manager of housing Hope Lee said knowledge is limited about what programs are out there for affordable housing development.

“There’s a lot of misunderstanding, too. I think some people think it’s just building larger rental buildings. It’s not,” Lee said. “It’s also about building affordable ownership homes. It’s about landlords who have units to offer that we can provide subsidies in. It’s about private homeowners who have the ability to create a secondary suite.”

The City and County have both committed to developing more affordable housing over the next 10 years, with the County aiming for 750 units and the City for 2,000. In a press release, the City said the municipalities would need outside help to meet the targets.

“The affordable housing targets set by municipalities are only achievable with participation from developers, community housing providers, non-profits, landlords and residents,” it said.

Lee said the presentation would discuss municipal plans and contextualize affordable housing in the region. She said they hope to get some expressions of interest to work from.

“We’re going to help people understand each of the program types. There will be an expression of interest roll out in a couple of months, we want people to know about that,” she said. “The municipalities have a set budget around them. They’re going to look at what’s recommended from the expressions of interest and what they can afford to approve each year.”

Animal cruelty probe underway in Minden

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Lisa Gervais

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February 9, 2020

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Provincial animal welfare inspectors are continuing to investigate the owner of a Minden Hills property in the wake of an animal cruelty allegation involving 14 hunting dogs.

However, the owner denies the accusations. In a Jan. 30 press release, Haliburton Highlands OPP said they visited the property Jan. 22 and called the new Provincial Animal Welfare Services (PAWS). Police said inspectors were working with the family to improve the health and well-being of animals on the property.

Ministry of the Solicitor General spokesperson Brent Ross said Feb. 4 that work continues.

“The ministry can confirm the inspectors are working with the owners of the dogs to ensure that orders are being complied with,” Ross said. “To date, we have seen positive progress in this regard, and we remain committed to bringing any outstanding matters into compliance.”

The property has a cabin but is not currently lived on, according to owner Brett Bongard. He keeps his hunting dogs on the property, chained to insulated dog houses.

The allegations stem from neighbours Shanna Dryburgh and Courtney Marlow. They described calling police out of concern for the dogs crying in distress and getting permission from them to come onto the property to help. They said the habitats were unkempt and Dryburgh described the dogs as emaciated.

“There were no dishes, water bowls to speak of,” Dryburgh said, adding she was shocked. “(I thought) this is wrong, this is so bad, my heart is broken. How can this be legal?”

“They’re unhealthy,” Marlow said. “I was saddened and just sick.”

The encounter prompted them to further contact authorities to press the issue.

But Bongard contests the allegations. He said he goes to the property twice a day to provide water and raw meat for the dogs.

He further said he understands where people are coming from and he has witnessed bad animal situations. But he added his dogs are not unhealthy and though they appear thin, the weight is normal for hunting dogs.

“They’re just in shape. People don’t understand that,” Bongard said. “A hunting dog has a job. It’s a working dog.”

He said he has been working with a PAWS inspector and has largely received approval for the setup, though he has had to make some adjustments, such as adjusting the chain size for some of the dogs and adding more straw.

Neither police nor PAWS have announced any charges against Bongard. Ross said given it is an ongoing investigation, it would be inappropriate to provide specific details.

But Dryburgh remains concerned and said PAWS has not contacted her for updates or any evidence she gathered during her visit. She said she feels Bongard was breaking rules and the dogs should have been seized, at least temporarily until improvements were made.

“The laws are there. Why make the laws if they’re not going to be enforced?” Dryburgh said.

Minden business helping the environment

By

Lisa Gervais

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February 9, 2020

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A few months ago, in response to overwhelming evidence that the earth is being smothered in plastic, Sobeys announced that, this month, they will begin using only paper grocery bags in pilot stores. In response, Loblaws immediately informed the public they would continue selling plastic bags. Some corporations have no conscience.

We would like to honour our small businesses for their conscience and contributions to helping reduce single use plastics in Minden.

Up River Trading Co. has always put purchases in paper bags. They now have fully compostable coffee cups. They no longer sell bottled water, but they do sell a variety of reusable items such as bees wax food wrap, stainless steel straws (paper ones as well) and a wide variety of stainless steel drink containers.

Unique Floral Designs uses brown paper wrapping, paper shopping bags and some recycled ribbon.

Coneybeare’s still uses butcher paper and string for wrapping meat.

Organic Times sells locallymade cloth bags and now has a large line of eco-friendly products. Paper bags are available for bin products as well as funnels for those who wish to bring their own containers. Purchases are placed in paper or biodegradable plastic bags.

Minden River Cone uses paper takeout containers. Molly’s Bistro provides cardboard containers for take-home baking and paper sandwich bags. Straws are only given when requested.

Graham’s Farm Market sells eggs in paper cartons and customers bring their own bags for produce at their home stand. V&S sells metal straws and stainless steel containers.

Mark’s Restaurant uses foil containers with paper or styrofoam lids and cardboard boxes for take-out, which is placed in paper bags.

Nourished sells much of its vegan and vegetarian fare in glass jars. They use biodegradable cellulose containers but encourage patrons to bring their own. They feel it is challenging for small businesses to offer environmentallyfriendly options because of the limitations placed on them by the health unit and government.

The Dominion Hotel uses paper napkins made from recycled material, has recyclable drink cups and paper bags for take-out orders. Compostable straws will be provided on request.

Boshkung Brewing/Rhubarb use fully compostable containers for their take-aways. Thanks to EAT! for the many sustainable products they sold.

Ommmh Boutique is now in the building and there could possibly be a limited amount of food in the future as well as fillyour-own, shampoo etc.

Foodland now sells mesh produce bags.

The municipality does not provide bottled water in its facility. Office staff, council etc. use tap water (some use the Brita) but there is no plastic. It is important for governments at all levels to set an example and for all of us to do our part, as well.

Enjoy your paper bags from Foodland when they arrive but when you shop at Valumart, please bring your own bag. Don’t feed Loblaws’ corporate greed by helping them make millions of dollars a year polluting our planet.

Hub provides help for youth in need

By

Lisa Gervais

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February 7, 2020

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Haliburton Youth Wellness Hub steering committee member Joey Varga told an audience she has first-hand knowledge of why youth services in Haliburton needed to change.

Helping develop and get funding for the hub became part of the 19-year-old’s healing journey, she said. After her family went through a challenging process in the health care system, she lost her 19-year-old brother Morgan Kessler to suicide in 2017.

“We felt we needed to do something that would make a difference in the system,” Varga said. “Morgan needed something like this. The youth everywhere needed something like this. And I’m thankful to be able to say I have been involved in making it happen. As a team, the youth in the community together with our allies have begun to create a legacy. We are making a difference.”

The Haliburton Youth and Wellness Hub celebrated its official opening Feb. 6. Dozens of people toured the centre on Dysart Avenue, which offers youth recreation and a variety of walk-in health services.

The hub has been running for several months as construction on its basement and accessibility features continued, which Point in Time executive director Marg Cox said were completed two months ago. The location is aimed at ages 12-25 and acts as both a social gathering space and centre for services for mental health, addictions and counselling. It also features social supports, helping youth with employment, income and housing.

The hub was developed at the former site of the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church by a wide-range of organizational partners. It was part of a series of 10 such hubs built throughout Ontario and was funded in large part through a provincial three-year grant worth $975,000.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Health Christine Elliott was on hand for the opening. She said addressing mental health and addiction services is a priority for the provincial government. She also announced that provincial funding for the hub would continue in perpetuity.

“There’s no end date. This is a valuable resource in this community that’s obviously, quite clearly needed,” Elliott said. “There’s been so much community involvement in this.”

“With the creation of the youth hub, we as a community are saying we care,” Dysart et al Mayor Andrea Roberts said. “My hope for the youth hub is it gives teens a place to laugh, to share, to play music, to eat food, dance. But most importantly, to feel connected, supported and loved.”

Cox said now that a foundation of services is in place, organizers would take steps to add more to the hub.

“It is such a joy to have Haliburton youth have the kind of services they deserve and to see such a community effort pull together to make it happen,” she said.

Talitha Varga, Joey and Morgan’s mother, told the audience she can imagine her son would have used the youth hub and made connections there.

“I see a home for youth. A place for them to just be. To be heard, seen, supported and loved,” she said. “It is too late for Morgan, but I believe this youth hub will save lives.”

RECO issues freeze order

By

Lisa Gervais

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February 7, 2020

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The Real Estate Council of Ontario (RECO) has taken further action against RE/MAX North Country as it continues its investigation into a real estate trust account shortage.

RECO announced Jan. 28 it had issued a freeze order to the bank accounts of RE/MAX North Country and revoked its registration, as well as the registration of one of its owners, broker of record Ray Jarvis. This follows the suspension of those registrations Dec. 31 due to several concerns, including the brokerage’s management and financial position.

Minden RE/MAX agent Blake O’Byrne said at this point, the investigation and any punishments have little bearing on local agents. Most former RE/MAX North Country agents are now under the RE/MAX Professionals brokerage, which is moving into the area to fill the void.

“Locally, it has no effect. That company’s (RE/MAX North Country) not in operation,” he said.

The order prevents any more money from being withdrawn from the broker’s accounts. RECO said the investigation is ongoing but no further details could be shared at this time.

The process of unravelling the finances of the company will take some time, O’Byrne said. With RE/ MAX North Country frozen, any agent still owed commissions must file an insurance claim. He said it could take two or three years to pay out, though brokers already understood that when the investigation began.

“Hopefully, we’ll get most of our money down the road, but it’s a long process,” O’Byrne said.

Meanwhile, RE/MAX Professionals is getting more established, O’Byrne said. Agents are already working under the banner remotely and the brokerage said it plans to secure office space in the area very soon.

“Our RE/MAX agents are already active members of their communities and committed to helping home buyers and sellers across the region,” Leah Ambler, broker and owner of RE/ MAX Professionals, said. “We are excited to begin opening new office locations and become more integrated members of the community as a local business.”

“They put a whole company with 70 people into operation,” O’Byrne said. “What they’ve done has just been amazing … We’re still doing business left and right.”

Correction: The print version of this story in the Feb. 6 edition of The Highlander said the new brokerage was RE/MAX North Professionals. In fact, the brokerage is RE/MAX Professionals. The Highlander apologizes for the error.

What’s in a suspect’s name?

By

Lisa Gervais

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February 7, 2020

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People love to read crime stories.

They eagerly dug into the news – announced Feb. 4 – that a large scale bust had taken place in Haliburton County the previous week.

Operation Imperial – as the cops dubbed it – was certainly huge, with 16 people charged as our community remains anxious about drug crime.

However, discussion online quickly turned to the names of the individuals charged, which The Highlander did not post. People wanted those names immediately, so they could know who allegedly wronged their community. They went as far as to link stories in our Facebook comments to other news agencies who could offer that. But this kind of attitude is dangerous, and the names of people charged with offences should never be released lightly.

One of the prevailing issues for reporters in naming people is presumed innocence. People may know that just because a person is charged does not mean they are guilty. But it does not always play out that way in the public sphere and getting named in a story like this can lead to people being unduly mistreated. This is especially true in a large case such as this when people can get tarred and feathered by association, even if they may have only played a small part in a crime or could even be outright innocent.

Small-town news outlets such as those in Haliburton County also rarely have the resources to go to court to confirm what happens to these alleged criminals. The police and court systems will not send out any press releases about the results of these people’s charges. Unless we can dutifully follow what can be a months-long process, we cannot easily discover whether our justice system might clear these people’s names.

We also must consider the realities of our online world. A person’s name can become permanently associated with a story about them being charged, even if they are later proven innocent. Employers can, and do, unfairly discriminate against people with bad Google results. Whether or not a person is guilty, using names in a crime story can have far-reaching consequences beyond due punishment.

All of this must be weighed against the public interest in knowing people charged with crimes. In small towns especially, people would like to know if they are associating with an alleged criminal, especially if they’re charged in connection with serious offences.

But the public interest can often be quite low. Unless the person is a prominent public figure, which is quite rare, most people will probably not know the person who gets charged very well. It does not necessarily make much of a difference to public safety to release such names, depending on the crime.

Of course, releasing names must be taken on a case-by-case basis. Someone getting charged with murder is very different than drug possession. A massive drug-bust is different than a singular theft. News agencies and police can also too often be inconsistent in their approach to naming suspects, hurting the public’s ability to parse when it is appropriate.

People in the public need to more seriously consider the release of suspect names and whether they really do need that information. When police and/or news outlets do release them, people must not abuse that information, lest the cops and the media become even less inclined to release names in the future.

New Minden fire chief warming up after move

By

Lisa Gervais

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February 7, 2020

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New Minden Hills fire chief Nelson Johnson said people have been coming up to him and saying, “I bet you find it cold here.”

But when he tells them he’s just moved from Nunavut, they retort “I bet you find it warm here.”

“And I really do right now find the weather just absolutely beautiful down here,” Johnson said during a break in last Thursday’s council meeting. “It’s not bad up north, but a little bit longer season.”

Johnson is going through a “big culture change” as he takes over from interim fire chief Mike Bekking and before that, fire chief Doug Schell. He started Jan. 13.

It’s early days but Johnson said he’s enjoying the area and the brand-new fire hall on Highway 35.

“I’ve been meeting all the firefighters and going on a few calls. So, I’m getting to know them. They seem like a wonderful, capable group of people, so I’m very excited to stay here for the long term.”

In the short term, over the next year or so, he said he’s excited to learn more about what local volunteer firefighters do and how they come together as a team to work well together to help the community. He is also hoping to improve community programs.

He said one of the biggest challenges to date is finding his way around, because he doesn’t know the roads network. He’s also studying Ontario fire legislation since it’s a new province of work for him.

He is confident he will figure that out in time, “but the biggest part is to learn how this fire department works and to fit myself into there. I didn’t come here to change it to my way because my way might not be the right way. So, I’m here to learn how they deal with things and the way it works and then we can work on improving ourselves.”

He said he understands there is an aspect of making the job his own, and he has talked to staff about their wants and needs.

“There’s some changes that we need to make but it’s not big changes about changing the fire department but about honing our skills and honing our response times. Or the way we work safely out there, to protect ourselves a little bit better because now we have all this information about cancer and PTSD. So, I can bring some of that knowledge here that will help us improve our safety for our firefighters so they have a long longevity here of being able to help and assist.”

He comes from a strong fire training background. He’s been an instructor for 28 years and worked for a training centre that saw 40,000 firefighters come through the door, “so a little bit of training skills there,” he said with a chuckle.

In his role as chief for Minden Hills, Johnson will be responsible for the fire and emergency services for the township, carrying out the administrative duties of the fire department and for the proactive leadership, policy and overall operations of the fire services.

He has more than 25 years experience in the fire service, both in the field and in various senior leadership roles, such as training officer, deputy chief and fire chief.

Johnson’s career includes Firemaster Oilfield Services, the Town of Bonnyville, Alberta and the City of Iqaluit, Nunavut.

For now, he said his life is all about getting settled into the job and getting his family settled into their routine. They have found housing but are not yet moved in.

“I really appreciate the opportunity I’ve been presented here and I look forward to working with the volunteers and I’ve already seen that they’re a great group of people.”